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Michael Schürig
Jan 02, 2019

When I joined SoundGym almost three months ago my aim was to improve my listening skills. More specifically, I want to develop my ability to accurately and reliably judge reproduced sound. Since then I've spent about an hour per day on most days and completed 65 workouts which have earned me an SPI of 165,102. Something is going right and I wouldn't have advanced this way without SoundGym. Still...
Still, in my view, SoundGym is not very good at training. You can train here, but you are left to your own devices. The games and workouts are not about training, they are about measuring. Unfortunately, they measure something that's not very useful. Let me elaborate.
Thesis: SoundGym games are about measurement not training.
The games just measure how good you are at playing them. They don't tell you how to improve. In my case, improvements have come through the sheer number of repetitions, which is probably a sub-optimal strategy.
There is a practice mode for several games, but it is pretty rudimentary. It's not possible to quickly switch between sounds. It's not possible to instantly compare various combinations of settings and sounds.
Also, there is no guidance on how to practice.
Thesis: Games measure peak ability, which is not very useful.
When I just look at my ranking, I could be tempted to pat myself on the back. However, this feeling only holds for the short time until I finish a game with a score much, much lower than my best. Yes, my best performance can be quite good when I can make a sizable number of attempts. But these high scores aren't representative of my listening abilities. My worst performance at a game is as much an indicator of these abilities as is my best performance. The necessary statistics would be a bit more involved and the results would most likely be less flattering (for me).
As SoundGym is not about competition, the really interesting question is not how well someone did something in the past, but how well they can be expected to do something similar in the future.
Thesis: SoundGym should be more like a teacher and less like a juror.
A lot of people around here play an instrument and if you're like me, you didn't learn it on your own, but you took lessons. With lessons there's a teacher who guides you along a learning path of increasing difficulty. A teacher tells you what to do and what not to do. A teacher tells you what to listen for. A teacher knows your strengths and weaknesses and helps you to improve the latter.
SoundGym should emulate what a good teacher does. A few examples of what this might look like
* Always explain what to listen for.
* Pan Man: Restrict pan positions to only two fixed positions. Increase difficulty by increasing positions. At some point switch to the current approach of a narrowing range.
* Dr. Compressor, Distorted Reality: Play sample sounds that demonstrate these features specifically; maybe even cut away other frequencies and instruments.
* Filter games: Start with a small number of fixed frequencies. Compare the same filter type at different frequencies. Compare different types at the same frequency.
I'm looking forward to your comments and hope SoundGym will improve in order to help me improve.
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Daniel Naron
Jan 02, 2019
Great point
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Rich Cooke
Jan 02, 2019
i've been a soundgym member for less than a month and i feel the same way already... especially about the point you made about teaching... soundgym is more of a reference game than a teacher... it tosses you right in with no explanation of what to listen for and if your not experienced you will be in the dark... However soundgym has helped me to critically listen more. Thanks for your post.
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Noam Gingold
Jan 02, 2019
The basic concept behind SoundGym training is to break the complex task of mixing (or any other audio work) into 'Sound Atoms' that you can measure, train, improve and. After you master the elements you still have the difficult (and fun) mission of putting it all together while mixing, recording and producing.
If you come with no knowledge at all in the audio field you better learn and experiment a bit first. You can use our learning and video sections for this. We also have blog posts about specific ear training topics.
But the ultimate way to improve is IMO by asking and listening to other members, their struggles and techniques that help them getting better.
The measurable competitive and gamified environment is a very important part of SoundGym, as it helps member to stay committed and motivated. When we think about development and game development in particular, we surely take that into account.
The learning process is not as linear as you might want, there is no step by step guide to the holy grail, SoundGym is taking another approach and as such it might not fit everyone. Some members might need a teacher to guide them through the process (And there are SoundGym ear training classes in many colleagues and schools around the world). But most members pros and amateurs find their way quickly and improve fast. Not only in playing SoundGym games but also in having more confidence and freedom while mixing and producing in the studio. We are proud of that 😃
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Michael Schürig
Jan 02, 2019
Noam, in order to clarify that I'm understanding you correctly, you don't intend to (additionally) provide a more guided learning approach and leave the teaching to others.
FWIW, in the time I'm here, I have apparently made my way into the top 10%. So it looks like I'm one of those who "find their way quickly and improve fast". Nevertheless, I keep thinking that the SoundGym games could do more to help me further.
It's your prerogative to find that SoundGym is fine just as it is, but in my opinion you're missing an opportunity to make it even better.
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Ross Williams
Jan 02, 2019
I agree with both points of view. I think it's great that SoundGym provides such a great way of measuring performance, and that measurement framework provides a space to improve intuitively. So I can sympathise with Noam's perspective.
But I also agree that SoundGym doesn't help much with explaining how to improve. I think SoundGym could do better by exploring this, but I also think that it would be perfectly OK too to leave SoundGym exactly as it is in this regard.
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Ross Williams
Jan 02, 2019
I want to say that I have learned lots about listening from SoundGym through osmosis. For example, I've learned to distinguish between a filter that boosts the whole low end vs one that boosts a particular low-end frequency by listening for a particular tone to stick out. I've intuitively learned to listen for that kind of sound. Similarly, I've learned how to listen for compression simply by being smacked in the face repeatedly by SoundGym when I get it wrong. :-) So it does work.
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Ross Williams
Jan 02, 2019
I also want to say that the Music Producer software market is growing and will triple in the next five years. Noam is probably onto a good thing with this site! He should think hard before losing his part of this market to a competitor that might arise that actually teaches listening instead of just measuring it. It's tricky.
https://www.audioxpress.com/news/global-music-production-software-market-to-triple-in-value-in-the-next-five-years
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Noam Gingold
Jan 02, 2019
I hear what you are saying @Michael Schürig, and we will take it into account. SoundGym learning experience is deliberately not entirely linear. Offering the games as a step by step guide instead of the current gamified versions is not an option for us.
We are a small team with grand plans for the future of SoundGym, and the resources are limited. I understand that some members can benefit from a more structured experience. Packaging games as a step by step tutorial in addition to the current operation is an option that we will consider.
Thanks for the insights!
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Philip Mitchell Lodge
Jan 05, 2019
When you ride a bike, do you know how much you adjust a certain muscle to maintain balance?
There are 2 types of knowing. No amount of been told how to ride a bike will enabled it. Only in the doing do we perfect the art. This is where sound gym comes in.
Choices in the studio are subjective and creativity is free, yet sound gym gives us that yes or no. In the studio, we can't really 'fall off' (that annoying wrong tone) to learn the reinforcement of correct balance.
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Philip Mitchell Lodge
Jan 05, 2019
I could argue that sound gym does also reinforce the conscious knowing and not just the act of.
Take EQ for instance. An amazing engineer might hear the problem, grab an EQ and fix it, quick, no idea what frequency the problem was at. Doing the exercises/puzzles improves the ability to actually name the frequency, even though that's not needed to fix it.
It's kind of, some people know things with out knowing. In some languages I think they have 2 different words for this 'knowing'.
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Philip Mitchell Lodge
Jan 05, 2019
We can alwasy discuss between us, read others posts, tips hints etc as away to help us improve or understand what it is to listen for.
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Michael Schürig
Jan 06, 2019
@Philip Mitchell Lodge, I do think there is point in explicit instructions on what to listen for and it does not contradict that critical listening in large part may be an implicit skill.
Let me give two examples
* Compression: Direct your attention to the attack and duration of a sound. In general, compression softens the attack and makes the sound longer.
* Equalization: To me specific frequency ranges have a specific sound quality. The adjectives we use to describe these qualities may well be different. To me(!) the range around 1 kHz sounds "soaring". To detect differences in the range 4 to 8 kHz, I listen for sibilants and cymbal hits.
That being said, the main aim of my original post was not to ask for this kind of instruction, although I would appreciate it.
I'm asking for a guided, more systematic approach to learning/teaching listening skills. Please look again at the examples in my original post.
To put it more (and overly) general than I did there: Vary just one parameter and keep the others fixed. Vary only the filter frequency, only the filter type, only the sound example. Than train me through games until I can reliably detect the difference each of these parameters makes.
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Orrin Cummins
Jan 07, 2019
I agree with you to an extent Michael, but I think what you are looking for might be beyond the scope of any self-study quiz scenario. I've done most of what you mention in a DAW though with plugins, either just as part of the normal mixing process or specifically as experiments to see the differences between stuff. Also, watching a pro mix some songs from start to finish via online tutorials can help immensely with most of this stuff, especially if they are explaining their thought processes and what they are listening for specifically as they go.
Case in point, I was watching a tutorial earlier and the teacher was playing around with a saturation plugin. He was A/Bing it and he said something like "you can hear the frequency differences between this, but that's the least important thing...listen for the changes in imaging and depth of field." That's the kind of insight that I don't believe you are going to find elsewhere.
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Michael Schürig
Jan 07, 2019
Orrin, regarding your example, I'd be quite content with detecting the frequency differences. At least for a start.
Relating back to something Noam wrote in his first response, I'm here to learn about the "atoms" of audio. Of course there are deeper insights, however they may not fit the SoundGym format so well.
I would like SoundGym to be great for training the atoms and as I wrote originally, I think that there is still room for improvement.
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Andrew Izatt
Jan 07, 2019
@Orrin Cummins:
"I was watching a tutorial earlier and the teacher was playing around with a saturation plugin. He was A/Bing it and he said something like "you can hear the frequency differences between this, but that's the least important thing...listen for the changes in imaging and depth of field."
What tutorial was this? I'd love to know what he means by how saturation can be used for imaging and depth of field. In fact, I'm not even sure what that means but I'd love to learn!
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Shane Kelm
Jan 07, 2019
Hey Soundgym. How about you give everyone multitracks to practice on? We practice/train/measure with already mixed tracks. If there was a complete section based on actual mixing of tracks, there might be more learning and training going on. Just having soundgym is only like having 25% of your audio education. Each week/month we can practice with a different instrument, vocals, drum kit, guitars. Etc. There can be a final mixed version we can try to obtain a quality for and there can be moderators who can give us mix crits to help everyone get to their own high quality mix. I want to be able to mix tracks from scratch with soundgyms learning platform, not just deconstruct already polished mixes. This might help with the gap between training and measuring.
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Shane Kelm
Jan 07, 2019
In summary please give us raw tracks to practice on. 😁
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Orrin Cummins
Jan 07, 2019
@Andrew Izatt it was one of Michael White's recent videos in the Mixing with Mike series
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Andrew Izatt
Jan 08, 2019
@Shane Kelm
That's a great idea! A regular contest and/or available resources to mix a song with a bunch of raw stems and even guest mixers would be cool. I'm sure many of us even have friends who would love to offer up some of their stuff to have it mixed so I don't think there would be any trouble finding raw stems.
There are some other sites that do something like this--Unstoppable Recording Machine, Dueling Mixes, do something similar but if SoundGym got in on that I'd definitely be interested.
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A.R. Leon
Jan 10, 2019
@shane kelm Thats a great idea, man
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VICTOR RICE
Jan 24, 2023
I agree that SG may want to create a series of tutorials. It's a great idea. Massive undertaking though.
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Romano G
Jan 25, 2023
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Fritz Dean
Jan 25, 2023
Vintage? I feel old.
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Joshua H
Jan 25, 2023
I recently joined and have similar thoughts. Another thing that rubbed me the wrong way is the courses are just a series of Youtube videos uploaded by people that seem to have no affiliation with the site (evidenced by the fact that some are a decade+ old). I was expecting a little more than curated playlists of videos, but I suppose I should have researched some more.

Other than that, I do think I am gaining something from the site, if for anything because it provides me with daily, targeted practice. I've only used Soundgym for a few weeks now, so I'm sure my opinion will change one way or the other, but my initial impression is that I was expecting a little more guidance and original content since I paid for a membership.